Interview: Steve Gorman (Trigger Hippy; The Black Crowes)

The last time Trigger Hippy had a show scheduled in Asheville, tragedy struck and the gig didn’t happen. Now, nearly six years later, founding members Steve Gorman (drums) and Nick Govrik (bass) look to make their band’s long-awaited debut at The Grey Eagle on Friday, March 6, with a retooled lineup and a new album, Full Circle & Then Some.

Prior to the performance — and his book-signing and Q&A event at 6:30 p.m. that night at The Dweller to promote his memoir Hard to Handle: The Life and Death of the Black Crowes — Gorman spoke with Asheville Stages about the evolution of Trigger Hippy, the most important ingredient for a successful band, and writing (and rewriting) his first book.

Edwin Arnaudin: It’s been a while, but we spoke in 2014 when Trigger Hippy was set to make its Asheville debut, then unfortunately the band had to cancel the show when…I believe it was because [then-bandmate] Joan Osborne’s father died suddenly?

Steve Gorman: Yeah! Yeah, we were there that morning, in fact. I was downtown having breakfast when we got the word. So, it’s long overdue that we get back to Asheville, that’s for sure.

EA: Yeah, I was curious about your thoughts on this long path to the band’s true Asheville debut.

SG: Well, it all makes sense in a weird way. Trigger Hippy, in one sense, has been around for 15 years. The first time Nick Govrik and I played together, we just were locked at the hip right away in a very surprising but very real way. And we talked about doing something from the minute we first met. We first used the name Trigger Hippy in 2009, but that was a one-off. For a long time, Trigger Hippy was me, Nick, and whoever was available that day. That’s just what we went with as opposed to, you know, “Steve and Nick.” Trigger Hippy sounded better to us.

So, when we ended up with a lineup that seemed kind of stable and we were writing songs, it was, “Let’s go make a record! Let’s do this!” And that’s what that first version of Trigger Hippy as a touring band was. It was fun and I think we had some great gigs and it was all very cool, but it wasn’t built to last. There was not a common sense of what we were doing beyond enjoying each other’s company. And while that was great, Nick and I had decided we would like something more. It took a while to figure that out because that band stopped in the summer of 2015, and then it was, you know, life comes up and we were thinking of doing other things, and within a couple of years, Nick is still writing songs, and, all this to say, our idea was, “Alright, if we’re going to do Trigger Hippy again, let’s do it ‘for real’ this time.”

And that’s where we are now. We took our time because we wanted to make sure this one was right and that this really was a band that could turn into a band. Like, this could turn into a full-time musical endeavor, and that’s where our head is at right now. So, in a weird way, we’ve been at it a long time, but we’re starting over for sure.

EA: You mentioned life happening and people pursuing other interests, but were efforts made to keep the original lineup or was that not realistic?

SG: It just didn’t seem realistic. Tom Bukovac, the guitarist in that first lineup, he left while we were still on the road. He just had other things come up where he just couldn’t do it. And then Jackie was just ready to be Jackie Greene again. In no way, shape or form is this a knock on Jackie — it’s just his personality. He didn’t quite understand what a band was. And I mean in just terms of, you know, you don’t just do everything you think because there are other people it affects. It was just one of those things. He’s been his own artist for so long. And, again, that’s just calling things as they are, whereas I have no idea what it is to be a solo artist. Everybody has different mindsets. So, like I said, it was clearly not a band that was built with a long-term plan, or even a plan to come up with a plan. You know what I mean? At the very least, this band is interested in making a plan. That’s step one.

EA: So, how did Ed [Jurdi, multi-instrumentalist and vocalist for Band of Heathens] and [vocalist/sax player] Amber [Woodhouse] join the band?

SG: Well, Ed and I go back a long time, and we were friends. I didn’t think about…it’s interesting you mentioned the last time we were in Asheville and had to cancel that gig. I was having breakfast with Ed when that happened, just because we’re buddies and he lives in Asheville. It was a year or two later — much later — when Ed said, “Hey, if you and Nick are still gonna ever do something, I’d love to write with you guys and see what happens. Let’s get in a room and jam.” It was one of those things where I wouldn’t have thought to ask Ed because he’s a really busy guy, but when he offered, I immediately said, “Yes,” and I called Nick and said, “Let’s carve out a time to get Ed over to [Nashville] and see what happens when we get in a room.”

And it was really that simple. Ed drove over and we knocked around some song ideas and we started putting together…that very first time he came to town, we put together “Born to Be Blue,” because that was his. He had that chorus and that guitar riff, and he goes, “I’ve got a couple ideas that are kinda cool, but I haven’t really taken some time with them.” So, he, Nick, and I, that first weekend, put “Born to Be Blue” together, and then the second time he came, we did “The Butcher’s Daughter” and “Long Lost Friend.” Those fell together really quickly and it felt great. Nick and I were like, “Oh, this is done. We’ll work with this guy.”

But it’s funny because we talked about the name, like, “Let’s move away from Trigger Hippy.” And as we kept working on songs and once we met Amber, and she stepped in and it had the exact same feeling of, “Oh, this is too easy. This is great.” It was just right in sync. But Nick and I are like, “No, wait, that’s the name. We dig this name. We like this name. This is us. This is just taking Trigger Hippy with a different attitude and a different attitude about what Trigger Hippy is.” So, none of this stuff was thought about or argued or discussed for as long as it is I’m telling you right now. It was all very simple: “What do you think?” “Ok, cool! Let’s do that.” 

And then we ended up with a lot of momentum really quickly with new songs. And we look up and a year has passed and we’ve got a record in the can, and then it’s like, “Ok, now, what are we gonna do with this record? Do we wanna actually find a label? Do we want to put it out ourselves?” And we ultimately did that with Thirty Tigers and we’re feeling pretty great about everything.

EA: That’s pretty wild about “Born to Be Blue” coming together so quickly, because — for me — it’s the standout track on the album and the one I keep coming back to.

SG: I definitely think it’s the song that the rest of the album is built around, both literally and figuratively. It was a definite green flag, waving for us to say, “Keep going,” because we knew right away what that was. We all heard the same thing. There’s iPhone recordings with two acoustic guitars and me keeping time on top of a speaker cabinet with my fingertips. You know? Even that version, it’s like, “This is great,” because we could all hear what we wanted it to turn into. And we all had a really immediate common sensibility about what that song should be. And it’s not the average song. It’s pretty unusual, in fact. And the fact that it fell right into place, we were like, “Ok, this is a really good thing.”

EA: And then in bringing Ed and Amber onboard, I’m curious about the changes made with the new ensemble and in what ways you and Nick adapted to play to the strengths of the new members?

SG: Well, it’s not something we really thought about, consciously. The strengths are apparent and you just end up working toward those things if you know what you’re doing. There wasn’t a time where we had to say…I don’t know! There’s not a lot of…I think everyone’s been doing this long enough and has enough experience where you just take what you have and move in that direction. That’s it. It’s not like you ever have to think, “Well, do you think Amber can sing this one?” [Laughs] There’s just not a whole lot of second-guessing.

I think we all agree on…this is a really important thing, too. When an idea is getting thrown around the room, I don’t think there was ever a time when somebody was like, “No, I really like this,” and no one else heard it. Things either popped or they didn’t. And we were always on the same page. And that’s a huge…I mean, sometimes it takes longer to get an idea across. That’s totally normal. But when everybody’s just immediately in agreement on what’s working and what you can leave behind, again, there’s just a series of little moments like that — but even as they’re happening, you’re not still aware of them. But when you look back and think about, you know, “Why do I feel so good about this?” Oftentimes, it’s things you don’t acknowledge in real time. You just keep moving because it’s going well, so you don’t want to stop and think about it. You just do the next thing, you know?

EA: Now, both Trigger Hippy albums are solid, but also obviously quite different. Are you playing songs from the first album on this tour or are they ones that only make sense with the original lineup?

SG: No, no. We do “Heartache on the Line.” That’s Nick’s song. The ones we do are all…“Rise Up Singing” was a Jackie song, so we don’t play it. That’s his. “Heartache on the Line,” “Pretty Mess,” “Dry County” — we’ve done those. Those are all Nick’s songs and it makes sense to do with this lineup. And “Heartache on the Line,” which is a duet, but it’s Nick’s. “Heartache on the Line” was kind of the “Born to Be Blue” of the first album. That was the first song Nick brought in, and right away, everybody was like, “Whoa! That’s pretty great.” [Laughs] That was sort of the one from the first album that…I think we always knew we would play that song for as long as we were playing.

EA: So, ideally, it sounds like this lineup will keep touring and making albums together. I wasn’t sure if that would be the case or if the plan was to have a new ensemble for each record.

SG: Well, no. In a perfect world, this would absolutely be the band. And Sol Philcox[-Littlefield], our touring guitarist, he came in at the last minute on the album. He just played on one song, “The Door.” That’s his slide solo. But when we met him and started playing with him that day, we just all…we had a great vibe with him as well. And everybody felt that, and right away it was like, “Hey, man. Do you wanna play some shows? Because we’re going to need another guitar player live.” And he said, “Yeah.” And within…we were still at our first rehearsal when I basically said, “Ok, you’re not going anywhere. You’re here. You’re stuck with us.”

And that’s a musical thing, but it’s very important to have a connection beyond that, because you’re going to be spending time with this guy, we’re all going to be together. And I’ve been in a lot of situations where you have a group of people that get along great, and there’s another friend that is gonna fit right in, but for some reason it doesn’t. Chemistry…bands are all about chemistry, in my head. That’s really…you can put great musicians together and they can play things that sound great, but if it’s a band…I look for that chemistry in everything. It’s another one of those things where the more you talk about it, the more you talk in circles and sound kind of pretentious, but it’s very real and it’s very important and significant. It’s kind of the whole thing to me.

And Sol came in, and I’m literally looking at this guy, like, “Oh, he’s gonna be great for this one song.” And then three days later, I’m saying, “You’re stuck here dude. Sorry. You can’t leave.” And that’s hardly expected. So, yeah, this would be…I want this lineup to stay together and make records for as long as it still feels like this. And right now, that’s absolutely my goal.

EA: Lastly, I wanted to say that listening to your memoir was probably my favorite reading experience of last year.

SG: Oh! Right on. Thanks, man.

EA: Thank you! So, I’m curious how the book came together and the process of working with [co-author and revered music journalist] Steven Hyden?

SG: The process was I thought I wanted to write a book and I called him and I said, “How do you write a book?” [Laughs] Because I can write all day long. And he said, “What do you mean?” And I go, “Well, I’m just curious. I have a lot of ideas about how to do this and I don’t want to spend five years figuring out which one clicks, so I just need a little guidance.” And he, of course, said, “Well, I write for myself. I’ve never helped anybody. I’d love to, so let’s see what happens.” We kind of just walked into this thing together not knowing what we were doing.

We came up with, what he suggested and worked, was that we get together and just record me talking and telling the story. Start at the beginning and just go. And we got together over a series of weekends for many, many, many hours, and he had my spoken-word version of the story of my time in The Black Crowes. And then he took all those many hours of audio, got them transcribed, and then we hashed out a set of chapters from that. It was like, “Ok, I think we should start here and go to here.” And, like I said, I knew I could write the book. I also just knew I could also easily start writing and never stop.

Long story short, we wrote the Cliff’s Notes first. We just mapped it out. He said, “Well, how far back do you want to go?” And I said, “I just want to start the day I get to Atlanta. I don’t need to talk about my childhood.” And he said, “Great. Ok, great! Get on the bus, and Chapter 1, take it to your first gig. Chapter 2, go back to when you first met Rich [Robinson], and then let’s go to when you joined the band. And Chapter 3, let’s…” And we’re literally talking about it like that. You know, “Ok. Ok.”

So we had, like, 40 chapters laid out that were just a series of bullet points, that we agreed on as a form. And then that all looked good to me, and we agreed that made sense, and once we did that, he basically said, “Ok! See ya later! Have fun writing it!” [Laughs] So then I went…I mean, that was it! It was like I was taking a moonwalk. “I don’t know if I’ll ever be back! Thanks for your help.” And I just spent about eight months, every day — or most days — just writing on my laptop, and I wrote about 900 pages, ultimately. It was a little extreme. But, you know, I wrote it all and I edit as I write, so it’s not like I’m a stream-of-conscience writer. What you’re reading in that book is how I wrote, but I just wrote way more. And so, I knew all along, this is way longer than what the publisher was asking for and it’s way longer than probably anybody needs, but I also thought it was really good and let’s just see what happens.

It was kind of funny. I turned it in and met the deadline — Halloween of 2018. I submitted it that day, and the publisher immediately wrote back, “Congrats, man. This is awesome. You did it. I can’t wait to dive in.” And 10 minutes later after he had opened up the file, he wrote back and said, “What the fuck is this?” [Laughs] And I was like, “Sorry, man! I didn’t know how long it was gonna be.” It’s funny because, I think that in the case of a lot of these kind of books, a lot of musician books, the musician isn’t actually the guy writing it, so that’s a little different. And then, they’re hoping that you give them 200 pages, a hundred of which aren’t terrible, so they can work with it. And I was like, “Here it is, man! Print that sucker!”

I look at it now and laugh, because I have a little more of an understanding of publishing and how things work. For instance, it never occurred to me to think, “How much does it cost to print a 900-page book?” [Laughs] I didn’t think about that stuff like that. The guy’s like, “What do you want us to do? Charge $75 a copy?” And I was like, “Oh, shit. Yeah.”

EA: [Laughs] Yeah, maybe roll it out as a four-part serial or something like that.

SG: Yeah, so there’s a lot of that kind of stuff in hindsight. But then what I knew was, obviously, the editing process is just gonna make me crazy. And the editor said, or the guy who technically is “the editor,” said, “Look, I’m not going to edit this because you’ll hate me. You guys have to go chop this thing down.” He goes, “Call Hyden, and get to work!” [Laughs] Basically is what he said. And I called Steve, and Hyden, to his charmed credit, he saw this coming a mile away. He was like, “Yeah, I knew they were going to freak out when they saw how long it was.”

He already had a mental running footnote of how to trim this thing back, and he understood very intrinsically, too, for the overall arc of the story, the narrative, there’s a lot of things that have already been established. They’re stories that are already funny on their own, but when you put them all in the same book, it can become…even though the specific details are different, they tell the same story. You’re repeating…in terms of who people really are, in terms of what the strength really was — not just negative stuff. Positive, too. [Hyden’s] like, “The reader already knows that. The reader is smarter than you’re…you’ve got to give the reader credit. They don’t need three of these. They just need one.” And as soon as he said those words, I went, “Oh! Yeah, of course!”

There’s the story of, “What is it you want to tell, and what is it that you’re just telling because it’s true?” [Laughs] You know what I mean? And to that point, everything in the book is absolutely true. My one line of thought was, “I’m not gonna put a single thing in this book that other people won’t back.” I wasn’t gonna have a single word in there that somebody could question. So, that was easy. Looking back, I was like, “Well, wait. What in here could be called out?” And if I can’t come up with multiple verifiers, I’m not going to put that in the book. And there wasn’t a whole lot of that. There was only a few.

But in terms of the overall arc, once I stopped thinking about it for months and went back in, I could see very clearly, “This is the story I’m trying to write, and a lot of this stuff…I’m saying a lot more than I realized already.” And so that process actually turned out to be really enjoyable. It was like a puzzle where you remove pieces, but keep the picture the same. It was pretty cool.

EA: And until reading the book, I no idea about your connection to Jeff Sipe, who I know from my hometown of Brevard, just down the road. [Sipe was tapped to be the Crowes’ tour drummer in 2005, sought Gorman’s advice through a mutual friend, and decided against joining the band, paving the way for Gorman’s return.] How did that relationship arise and where have you crossed paths since then?

SG: I haven’t talked to Jeff in forever. And we’re not close at all — we just know each other and are mutually admirers of each other. We’ve only met a handful of times, but we have a lot of mutual friends.

It was funny because that’s one of those things that I kind of forgot about. When I was writing the book, that’s one of those things where I was like, “Oh, hey, wait a minute! I forgot all about Sipe looking for a little assistance with this.” It was fun to go back and be like, “Oh yeah! That’s great!” Because I know when I started writing that chapter, I didn’t have that in my head as a thing that had happened. It was like, “Oh yeah, I forgot!” And there were a lot of those, too. I have, obviously, a pretty strong memory, but once you open those doors, it just opens more doors. There’s so much more underneath than the first things you think of.

IF YOU GO

Who: Trigger Hippy with Rich Nelson Band
When: Friday, March 6, 9 p.m.
Where: The Grey Eagle, 185 Clingman Ave., thegreyeagle.com
Tickets: $15 advance/$18 day of show

(Photos by Scott Wills)