Interview: Jay Clifford and Ward Williams (Jump, Little Children)
From late ‘90s and early 2000s anthems “Cathedrals,” “Come Out Clean,” “My Guitar,” and “Mexico” to more recent fare like 2017’s “Sparrow,” Jump, Little Children has been a steady force in rock music for over 30 years.
To help celebrate the release of the band’s final (?) album, Foundering — out today on major streaming platforms — vocalist/guitarist Jay Clifford and cellist/guitarist Ward Williams spoke with Asheville Stages about the power of Patreon, working with Zach Braff, and looking back on 30-plus years of playing music together.
Edwin Arnaudin: I was looking at the calendar, and it's about three months to the day before the Grey Eagle show [on Wednesday, Dec. 21], which I’m very excited for. My buddy Steve and I got tickets the day they went on sale, and we were at The Orange Peel show in 2017 and had a blast there.
Jay Clifford: Oh, sweet! Awesome.
EA: Yeah! So, I was curious, what are some of your standout memories over the years of playing various Asheville venues?
JC: Well, we really started at Be Here Now, right there on Patton [Avenue], right in the center of town. And I have a lot of fond memories of playing there. it's one of the sort of listening rooms/ rock rooms that you can really kind of figure out how to do live performances. It had a really great vibe to it. So, I loved playing Be Here Now. Grey Eagle's been a lot of fun. Orange Peel, of course, is an amazing venue. But yeah, I always look forward to playing Asheville. It's a great musical crowd. The fans there have always been extremely supportive and enthusiastic.
Ward Williams: We also love eating at Salsa’s.
JC: That’s right.
EA: Yes! Y’all have good taste.
JC: [laughs]
EA: I’m also a movie critic, and before we start talking about the new album, I remember when Zach Braff’s Wish I Was Here came out and “Mexico” showed up, I got a nice, warm feeling. So I was curious about what was involved in that whole process. Was he pretty hands on in getting that song and showing you the scenes from the film, or was it a little more hands-off than that?
JC: Well, he reached out to me in, gosh, when was that? 2006 or so? Well, let me back up, because he…do you remember his MySpace page by any chance?
EA: I’m trying to think…maybe?
JC: You look pretty young. I can't tell how old you are…
EA: Oh, I had MySpace.
JC: But his MySpace page was kind of a big deal back in the day because he would put a song up there and it would get a lot of views — a lot of listens. And he was really kind of curator of new artists and whatnot. I think he influenced a lot of people back then. Still does. So, he put “Mexico” on his MySpace page back then. And I remember it seemed bigger than being on radio at the time. And I think it probably was.
And then he reached out to me in 2007 and wanted to come down to the studio. I was doing my first solo record [Driving Blind] in West Hollywood and he wanted to come down to the studio and check it out while we were recording it. So, he hung out at the studio for a while and listened to some tracks and whatnot. He's just a really nice, cool guy.
We had a good time hanging out, and then he proposed the idea of making a music video for me. So, in 2007, he made a video of himself talking about how he wanted to create the video, and asked people to send in videos of themselves lip syncing [“Know When to Walk Away”]. And he got submissions from all over the world. It was really a great idea and then he edited it together.
So he's been a supporter and a fan and kind of in creative involvement, but the “Mexico” in Wish I Was Here was more hands-off. He was just like, “Hey man, I wanna put this in the movie.” And I was like, “Great!” And then I went and saw the movie and it was in there. [laughs] So, that was a pretty off-the-books kind of thing. But yeah, he's been very supportive.
EA: Nice! When Garden State came out, I was doing study abroad in London and there was a special screening at the London Film Festival. And I'd already seen it in Asheville and I was a big fan and I was like, “I’m gonna go, I'm gonna sit in the front row and maybe I'll get to see him.” And I didn't know if he was going to be there, but I wore my Beastie Boys shirt to be like, “I'm an American! look at me!”
JC: [laughs]
EA: And so, when he wound up being there and they said he’d be doing a Q&A after, I was thinking, like, “What's a good question?” And then, I was holding my hand up and he did call on me. And I asked my question and he said, “Wait a second. You're not from here.” And I said, “No.” And he goes, “Where are you from?” And I go, “North Carolina.” And he goes, “North Carolina: in the house!!!” [laughs]
WW: [laughs]
JC: [laughs] That’s hilarious! I bet that was a really interesting talk. He's an interesting, smart guy, So I'm sure that was informative.
Jay Clifford
EA: Definitely. Well, thinking about band history, I know y'all have gone on hiatus before and I was curious how you’ve spent your time during that period. Has it been mostly focusing on solo music projects or have you done other work and exploration outside of music?
WW: Well, during the first hiatus [in summer 2003], I moved up to New York City and kind of just floundered around and spent half of the money that I'd saved to move up there just trying to figure stuff out. But gradually — I had written a [self-titled] album and done some songwriting on my own, and that was sort of my Plan A. I was like, “All right, I'm gonna go up and…screw you, Jay! I'm gonna be the singer/songwriter!”
JC: [laughs]
WW: I remember talking to Jay after I tried doing a few gigs, I was like, “Jesus Christ! That is so hard…”
JC: [laughs]
WW: “…You can't stop. You can't relax. You have to be on and sell the whole entire song.” So then I said, “Screw that! I don't wanna do that anymore!” And basically I realized that the role that I'd settled into in Jump, Little Children fit me very well. So, I played locally with a lot of different people up in New York, but also went on tours with [pianist] Vienna Tang and sat in with Brandi Carlile and Sara Bareilles on some TV shows. I just finished a tour this fall with Dar Williams. So, I kind of just realized that…and I'm not saying I'll never write music again…
JC: You should, Ward!
WW: I should! And I do. I’ll write stuff for people, like when I'm recording, I compose parts and things like that. That being said, I've never been a natural singer, as far as lead vocals go. I love singing back-up and love singing harmony, but unless something happens where I just really find a lead vocal voice within myself, I don't anticipate that I would want to do The Ward Williams show solo again. I feel like my gift is ensemble playing or instrumental music, if I'm gonna compose something.
JC: I put out a couple of solo records — one in 2007, one in 2011 [Silver Tomb for the Kingfisher] — which were a lot of fun for me to do. But my kind of day-to-day gig was I had a studio with Josh Kaler, who produced this record, Foundering, and the previous [Jump, Little Children] record, Sparrow. And we really developed a professional relationship as well as a good friendship over those years. So, from 2008-ish for about five years there, we had a studio that we produced records, and it was kind of a writing space.
And then for about a decade, from 2005 through 2014-15, I worked with the Colorado Symphony. I was the arranger for singer/songwriters that wanted to play with the symphony. So it would be like, you know, “Gregory Allen Isakov wants to play with the symphony!” So he would send me a dozen songs, then I would write the arrangements for that. Or Guster.
EA: Yes! One of my favorites.
JC: I worked with Guster and a bunch of different artists — dozens and dozens of them over the years. And that was an amazing experience in a lot of ways, but an incredibly difficult one. It was highly technical and there were extreme time pressures. You had to just lock in and go for it every day to get a big project done, to get, like, 15 arrangements done for an upcoming show that’s already on the books. [laughs] So you have to have to get it done. I loved doing that. It was really creative and fun, but it was also really, really challenging.
But my favorite thing, my real love is songwriting. So after going through that experience, I really wanted to get back into songwriting. And so we did the reunion tour in 2015 and that went really well and just kind of surprised us to how responsive the fan base was and how enthusiastic they were.
And so we decided to make the next record, Sparrow. We did a PledgeMusic campaign for that, which went really well. And then we decided to take it one step further with this record and started a Patreon account. So, we do a podcast; we released a bunch of B-sides; we would put out live audio and video multi-cam shows. We would do all kinds of little creative things, like some stories about the writing of older songs.
And then, of course, the whole time we're writing for the next record and getting feedback from the community on what the record is gonna be like, which songs they like – that sort of thing. And then they ultimately vote on it, And then we go into the studio and start to make it. So, those roughly three years of Patreon were an extremely creative and fun and interesting endeavor that focused on what I love the most, which is the songwriting part of it.
EA: I do Patreon for my movie reviews.
JC: Oh, you do? Cool!
EA: And I agree that it's great to get those interactions and offer those bonus things, so I'm always happy when other artists and creatives are doing that.
JC: Very cool.
Ward Williams
EA: What were your expectations with Patreon going into this and then how did that line up with how it actually played out? Because it seems like it was a great success.
JC: We had no idea what to expect. We sort of just set it up, like, “Hey, let's try all of these things and see what works.” We launched it and we got a great response and then we started putting out the material, the content, and then we did an internal survey of the patrons and then took that survey and focused on the stuff that they liked the most. And then it's been kind of cooking along those lines ever since — working within the parameters that the patrons set.
And it's been incredible. It's really interesting how it's affected the songs themselves because, you know, context is everything in art. I mean, you know this. You write about movies and whatnot. You can duct tape a banana to a wall, and if it's inside of an art gallery, then it has value. So, the context in which art is created really infuses the art with some extra meaning of some kind.
And so to have a community really care about what you're doing, what it does is it's sort of this protective space where you don't have any thoughts, any concerns about record labels or what someone in the industry might think or what anybody who is gonna help put this record out, what their opinion about the songs themselves might be.
In the past, I've always tried to kind of keep that out of mind whenever I'm writing. The writing is a very personal thing. But it does have a tendency to creep in there. Even if it's not in the actual song itself, in which songs get chosen for the record and how they're produced and all of that stuff. So to have a very protected, kind of walled little paradise where you can be playful and creative and inspired and curious is an extremely productive place to be.
EA: And were you surprised by some of the selections that the fans made? Were there songs that you were like, “Man, I really want to record that!” And were there others that you're like, “Wow, I never thought that would be in the top three” or something like that?
JC: That's exactly what happened. There was one song in particular, “Feather and Bow,” that wasn't on my list or the producer's list or the band's list. Actually, that's not true. I think, Ward, I think it was on your list.
WW: I knew. I sensed something.
JC: [laughs]
EA: [laughs] Ward has The Force!
JC: [laughs] Yeah, Ward’s got it. [laughs] I just thought it was a little too down in tempo or maybe a little bit somber. But one of the patrons made the point that over the last couple of years, because of the pandemic, so many people have been through some traumatic experiences and it's been a really difficult and kind of unsettling, disturbing couple of years for a lot of people, that this song might resonate, so reconsider and put it on the list. And we did, and now it's one of my favorites.
WW: It was one of the three tunes that we chose that Jay wrote string parts that the Czech Studio Orchestra played. I mean, it's not cheap, but compared to hiring a symphony that does concerts… Do they do live concerts or are they just straight up in the studio all the time?
JC: This collection is just in the studio, from what I understand.
WW: So, they're dedicated to working with artists. They're a recording orchestra and that's what they do. And, godammit, they just have it down. It’s so efficient. I can't tell you how many times in different band rehearsals — of course not Jump, Little Children. Jump, Little Children is always a super efficient, tight ship.
JC: [laughs]
WW: But there's so much wasted time. But this? They were on it. Jay and me and Josh Kaler were watching on Zoom and had a feed of what was happening, and it just sounded amazing. And we were all like, “That's incredible!” There were just tiny little tweaks, some suggested by us, some suggested by their engineer. They would ask, “Oh, this isn't quite clear in the part. How short should this short note be?” And Jay would clarify that for them, but it was just breathtaking watching them work. And if you're a patron, you can see the behind-the-scenes of how it all went down. It’s actually really interesting, especially if you have a musical background at all. It's just really, really impressive.
JC: So that song, “Feather and Bow,” was voted on by the patrons to be on [Foundering]. So then, like Ward was saying, we ended up using the Czech Studio Orchestra to record the strings and we had someone videotape it in Prague and send us footage of the Prague city center and the studio office and entrance and building, and the actual studio itself, and then the performances. And we put together this little montage of moments there for the patrons.
And then we included the Zoom conference that we had about it and how everything changed. And then we also included the charts for the orchestra themselves — the actual charts. Patreon does this thing where it encourages you to make content out of things that, in the past, would just go under the radar and wouldn't even be recorded or noticed. But they end up being really interesting parts of how records get made and how things are done. And the patrons love it! The fans love it. So, it's been really fun in that way.
Jonathan Gray
EA: It sounds like such a rewarding last few years, and then the album itself I think speaks for itself in terms of quality and the amount of time that was put into it. It seems like there's all this momentum, and then it's like, “But now we're not gonna tour anymore. We're done.”
JC: [laughs]
WW: [laughs]
EA: [laughs] So, is it just the right time? Is it the 30-year mark? What's going into this decision?
JC: It was a difficult one. Evan and Matt [Bivins] decided to bow out of this last chapter. And Jump, Little Children has always been — except for the first year or so where we were kind of finding the core members of the band — for the past 30 years, Jump has always been the five of us, and it’s, I think, unique in that way. A band lasting for 30 years is something that I'm extremely proud of, but Matt and Evan needed to make a change in their life and focus on their business.
So, it just came at a time where the record was already written and we were just about to go into the studio. We were caught in between making good on the promise to the fans to make the record under the name Jump, Little Children, and Matt and Evan not being able to be a part of it. So, really, the only solution was to go ahead and make good on our promise and then do the tour and call it The Farewell Tour, and make it the end.
WW: When we did the reunion tour in 2015, it was incredible and it felt great. It was very magical. That being said, this whole second chapter, as wonderful and rewarding as it is — which it has been. I wouldn't trade a second of it — there have been many times that I've been on the phone with Jay or [bassist Jonathan Gray] or Matt or Evan and been like, “Jesus! This is really hard not having all of us in the same town."
JC: Yeah.
WW: If you want to do a rehearsal, it's like, “OK, let's start looking at plane tickets or rental cars or hotels.” It's just a really tricky thing trying to sustain that. And, I mean, gosh — it’ll be a seven-year run from the end of 2015 to end of 2022. That pretty impressive, especially not being in the same town. And obviously, COVID through a big monkey wrench into everything.
And as this album was starting to come together, it was even before Matt and Evan officially bowed out — really, there was a sense that they were, I think in the course of them making this decision, they were kind of dragging their feet. And we could tell. I mean, they were just preoccupied. They were working on the Biv Bros Empire, their web design, graphic design company [Bivins Brothers Creative]. And I think they really couldn't devote the attention that they wanted to and needed to, to be a part of it. And it was sad for everybody. I think they were really sad about it. I think, obviously, we were very sad about it, but at the end of the day, it felt like a pretty amicable way to continue.
But, you know, none of us can predict the future. None of us know what's gonna happen. But right now, it definitely feels like, “Let's do a big shebang!” This record was definitely…if all of our records are children, this one was kind of a C-section.
JC: [laughs]
EA: [laughs]
WW: You know, it was a difficult birth, but it's a beautiful baby and we're very excited about it.
EA: A healthy baby. Very healthy.
WW: A beautiful, healthy baby. But Mom and Papa are ready to maybe not have kids anymore after this.
JC: Except through adoption. Jesus… [laughs]
WW: Right. [laughs]
JC: [laughs] That’s all well said, Ward. Yeah, this is The Farewell tour. The last time, we called it The Last Hurrah, but we put in the caveat that, like in 2005, we were calling it a hiatus.
This isn't a hiatus. This is the last tour, the last album of new material. We might put out some sort of retrospective stuff moving forward, but it's gonna be the last new material album. And so, on the 30th of December, we're gonna take a bow at the Charleston Music Hall and that that'll be it.
EA: Lastly, when I think about y'all's career, I think, like, “Cathedrals” for me is an all-timer song. Out of anybody that I listen to, that's always be up there for me. I just think it's lovely and has stood the test of time and I think will continue to. So, really thank y'all for that moment of beauty.
But for y'all personally, what do you consider some of the band's greatest accomplishments or the most fun times? Where does your mind go when you think about being in this band for the past 30-some years?
JC: Well, thanks for saying that about “Cathedrals.” That song kind of came out of nowhere. There was an original member of the band, Christopher Pollen, who was from Ireland, who was sort of the Irish influence on the band or in the early years, who ended up joining a cult in Boston. We all lived there in Boston for like six months or so, and I would go to visit him at the cult because we lived together in an apartment there, and then he just said, “Hey, I'm gonna join this cult,” and left. So I would go and visit on Fridays because they would have a guest meal on Fridays, and you would go and have a meal and sit around a fire.
It was a very educational experience, because just the flexibility of the human experience is so intense. But watching him sort of give up on the larger world and a demand of himself and his surroundings that it become this smaller version of life…he sort of went through this strange metamorphosis. He was Catholic before that, and then became Twelve Tribesmen. Watching him go through that process was so impactful to me, to see how dramatic the day-to-day journey can be for everybody, you know? So that's sort of where that song came from, was from that experience.
So, songs like that mean a lot to me. All of the songs have some real personal meaning for me, and the catalog is something that I'm gonna be proud of forever. Despite its popularity or what it means to the rest of the world, it means a lot to me when people find meaning in it for themselves. But it's this interesting kind of archive for me, emotionally, because I go back and I listen to some of these songs and it puts me right back in that place where the song actually came from. So, yeah, I don't have any other real specific moments to talk about because they all have a pretty dramatic meaning for me, but the catalog in general, that's what it means to me moving forward is that it's this collection of stories.
EA: A true body of work.
WW: For me, there were a lot of high points of being in this band. A lot of low points, too, but it was just our lives. I mean, my first job out of college was this band. But a real high point, I'll never forget in 2015, walking out on stage at Terminal West [in Atlanta], the first time we'd played since 2005, and we were all shitting bricks. I mean, I was so nervous because we hadn't played these tunes together in 10 years. But getting out on that stage and hearing the crowd reaction and feeling like 10 years had passed, but also feeling like it had just been yesterday… everything just kind of slipped back in to place. That was pretty miraculous.
That was a moment that was just like, “Oh, my gosh.” This thing that we built over time…like Jay said, the popularity or success — which we've had a lot of compared to a lot of people, and haven't had as much as other people — but there's something objective. This is a real thing. Jump, Little Children is a legit act/band/family.
And even with Patreon especially, but even before Patreon, the whole community of fans and people, it's kind of like everybody sort of joined the band, too. That reunion wouldn't have taken place without fan energy on social media. People bug us every year. “When are y’all gonna do a show?” And then Patreon, it is a direct patronage, facilitating us to be able to operate as a business. So, I think that moment at Terminal West really clued me in to both the specialness of the five of us as a band, but also the greater community of people who are our fans and kind of our family.
You could say “fan-mily” if you wanted to.
JC: [laughs]
